DEONTAY WILDER VS TYSON FURY II and III??? : The Final Word

So I recently watched this kinda hilarious back and forth video on the 2nd Deontay Wilder/Tyson Fury fight. It goes off the hinges in the last 15 minutes, with the guy outside the ring, who had good points up to then, trying to write off everything to Fury’s height, which is incorrect.

It’s a bit long, so you may want to read this post first than view the video.

So I thought I would chime in, on my (hopefully) very quick thoughts, as just a fan of the sport, on the fight.

First, those of you not giving respect to Deontay  Wilder, let me quickly ask you this.

• How many times have you fought Tyson Fury?
• How many times have you knocked down Tyson Fury?
• How many times have you been in there fighting him round after round?
• And beyond the fight, the really crushing thing is often all the draining bs circus that revolves around it, how many times have you and your family had to suffer the tirades of people who have never stepped foot in a boxing ring a day in their life?

If the answer to any of those questions is 0, then you lack the background to disrespect or to berate, and so you should learn.

If supremacy in Boxing is defined by how many  men can get in a boxing ring with Tyson Fury, and throw hands with him for multiple rounds, that’s a very short list, and top of that list is Deontay Wilder.

So keep your hate and disrespect in perspective. And say nothing through the keyboard or twitter or facebook or chat, whatever, that you would not say to that person’s face in private.

Ok— onto my thoughts on the fight —

I think the fight illustrates a few different issues with the Heavy Weight division. One that I have stressed for sometime.

From 200lbs to say 235lbs, to be generous, you are a heavy weight. That is the HT, completely arbitrary Heavy Weight range, but I’ll let you know why and where that comes from as we go on.

Beyond 235 you are a super heavy weight.  There is a reason fighters our penalized money and fights are called off, if you go over weight. Every pound, in a sport that is all about pounds, is seen as an advantage.

I am one of those who thought the first Wilder/Fury was a draw.

I think in this 2nd fight, they both came in with game plans, and Fury’s was the better, if not exactly legal, game-plan.

I think Tyson stacked the deck with a lot of advantages going into that fight, and part of that is on Wilder’s team for letting the date, and the venue, and so many other things– be to the advantage of Fury’s camp. On top of that, by my measure of the weight range– my definition of what makes a heavy weight, Wilder is a natural heavy weight. He can come in at 215 or 220, and be a wrecking house at that weight.

Wilder’s gameplan was he came into this fight at the heaviest he has ever been, to try and deal with the weight advantage of Tyson Fury, who at nearly 280 is a natural super heavyweight.

It is the gameplan that a lot of real heavyweights have had to do, to try be competitive against these Super-heavyweights;  and unfortunately it generally does not work. You blow yourself up, to a weight you are slower at, less resilient with your cardio,  all in the hopes having enough mass to stay in the fight. But what generally happens in that scenario, is talent being equal, the one more comfortable at that weight… wins.

Without doubt Fury used every dirty trick in the book, and a few not invented yet, in that fight; from illegal rabbit punches, to finding creative ways to extend his reach and nullify the padding on his glove. And without doubt he is an extremely talented boxer, but the deciding factor was the weight. All of this and Fury knows how to drape all of that 280lbs on you, so you are spent –just trying to stand up, much less evade punches and try to deliver your own. That 40lb difference, on top of everything else– on top of the fact that Wilder is not used to carrying his own beefed up weight, just decided the fight.

But Wilder has nothing to hang his head about. In a world of nearly 8 billion people, I don’t see too many others who were there that night, in a hostile venue, standing in front of a 280lb skilled Super-Heavy weight. And still after the fight,  there are not too many legitimate fights for talented Super heavyweights, which is doing a disservice to the heavy weight division.

There are a lot of fighters in the heavy weight division that can be the next Jack Johnson, or Marciano or Ali. But we won’t see them as long as we let Super Heavyweights fight in the heavyweight division. We are stagnating a whole generation of potential great heavyweights.

Limit Heavy Weight to 235. If you are over that weight, you fight in the super heavy weight division. That is the only sane option to make the heavyweight division the exciting, competitive, packed dream division that it once was. You negate Fury’s weight advantage (which he has had in both fights) and you are talking two very different fights.

That fight, between Wilder and Fury played out with both men at no more than  235lbs, I think while Fury is  the slicker Boxer, Wilder pound for pound is the stronger man, and at the 235 limit, against another 235er, I think Wilder puts Fury on his butt. Puts anyone on their butt.

 

I will also say, again just as a fan, I do not think Wilder’s corner did him any favors. I think Fury looked at their first fight and (beyond any of the questionable, potentially illegal hijinks done) adapted.

Whereas Wilder’s camp beyond putting on additional weight, I don’t really think they adapted a fight plan for Fury. Just based on their first fight, and watching previous Fury fights, I think the plan sensibly would have been… “what to do to negate Fury’s movement and reach and angles”.

And the answer that comes to me as just a fan (with no boxing  or coaching experience, so I think it would be 10 times as clear to someone who is a boxer or trainer) is you put the fight on Fury’s chest.  Realizing that if you headhunt a 6’9 lightning slick Fury, hoping to land a ‘hail mary’ punch, you are not going to win.

Rather you put the war on his body, attack the arms, attack the ribs, attack the gut, slow him down, get the arms to drop. A war of attrition to negate that motion, to control the pace and the ring, and get into the later rounds. I think that is the gameplan that gets you into the championship rounds.

Seemingly they did not come with that gameplan, or it was jettisoned in the ring. And instead we got the fight we got.

But regardless of my take, both men deserve and have earned respect.

The world is full of a few types of people. In sports, one of the best are those who aspire, and risk winning and losing.

WIlder and Fury are an example, both of them, of that best. Of those who aspire, and risk losing, in order to win. It is courage, anyway you stack it.

Then there are those, fans who , not as gifted, celebrate those who excel at a thing. Now your being a fan, may buy you an opinion to like or dislike a thing. but at no point, should you lose sight of the respect you need to hold, for someone who is better than you at something.

Whether a soldier or a cook or a boxer— at the thing they are better than you at, you respect the man or woman, who does their job well. To fail to do that, is just envy, and it is not a good look… it defines you— not them.

Would I like To see a Wilder Fury III? If Wilder comes with a real game plan, ok, sure.  But I’m tired of there only being 3 or 4 viable super-heavyweights, and therefore a shallow pool of options. So what I really want to see, is a Heavy Weight Division, for the good of the sport, institute a 235lb limit.

Till they do that, the Heavy Weight division will be a suppressed division.

 

 

Here endeth the Lesson.

 

Almost. 🙂

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WHY DO WEIGHT CLASSES MATTER?

 

And lest you think I am making too much, of a 5 or 10 or 40 lb advantage, here is a brief breakdown of weight divisions for those of you who do not know…

The reason we have weight divisions, is to make fights competitive.

Let me repeat that, the reason we have weight divisions, is to make fights competitive.

There is a reason that at every ten pounds you are generally in a new division. Being the best at a specific weight class is an art. To fight at that weight, against others who have trained to fight at that weight, and to be the best at it, is an art.

If you are a champion at the light weight division and knocking out people at 135lbs, it is a whole different level of power when you go ten pounds up to 147lb Welterweight division, and then go up ten more pounds to the 160lb Middleweight division ( historically where the most exciting fights have happened, often the perfect combination of speed, power, finesse, and just entertaining wars). These fights are competitive, and the division is competitive because you have a lot of great fighters  at that weight, with similar reach, etc, to make for competitive fights.

And that competitiveness continues as you go up in ten pound increments to the 175lb Light Heavyweight Division and 200lb Cruiserweight division.

Today that competitiveness stops when you hit the heavy weight division.

And the reason for that is that lack of a strict weight range that makes for disciplined, competitive fights and fighters.  And while the heavy weight division managed fine for most of the 20th century without doing weight limits, the reason was that even though you may have the anomaly of the extremely tall or extremely heavy  fighter, they were not really competitive against the standard, a 6ft/6ft 2″ 200lb to 220lb  world class boxer.

George Foreman in the 1970s was arguably the World’s first TRUE super heavy weight. He was big and he was strong he was fast, and he was a brilliant boxer, he was the unbeatable man, and dwarfed the heavyweights of the day. When you see Ivan Drago in Rocky IV, that was George Foreman in the 1970s. He was a frightening force of nature. One reason Ali is remembered as the greatest is he fought all these unbeatable men, and found a way to beat them. But the young, mean, “I will Break You” George Foreman was a glimpse of what was to come. 

After very competitive years in the heavyweight division with Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, and the return of an older, nicer George Foreman, the curtain began to descend on the division with the rise of the Super Heavyweights on the Heavyweight stage. These 6’6″+ and 250lb+ behemoths, the age of  Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, Tyson Fury (while all great fighters) led to an extended period of stagnation and disinterest in the heavyweight division. Largely because you only had 2 or 3 competitive super-heavy weights at any one time, so you had a lot of legitimate heavy-weights, blowing themselves out, putting on weight to try and be competitive against someone who naturally outweighs them by 50lbs, or has a massive height/reach advantage.

Only recently, having 3 such exciting and flamboyant fighters in the division at the same time, Anthony Joshua, Deontay Wilder, and Tyson Fury; has the heavyweight division become prominent again. And really it was largely the rise of Deontay Wilder, as a flamboyant, and exciting prospect in the mix (and someone who legitimately, in my opinion,  is a heavy weight, rather than a super heavyweight), that really galvanized the division.

 

Okay history lesson over, that’s a little bit of why tightly defined weight ranges matter, and why the Heavy Weight division needs that instituted.

 

Feel free to like, comment, subscribe and spread the word! 🙂

 

Thanks!

 

Deontay Wilder vs. Tyson Fury 2 fight : Prefight Pick and the Last Word!

Have 20 minutes before this fight starts.

 

My prediction? To quote Mr. T in ROCKY III…. PAIN!

All joking aside, while I do not have a dog in this fight, I am one of those who thought the decision of the first fight, a draw was a good decision.

I also think Wilder proved, even being outweighed by 50lbs, he is the harder puncher and the stronger man. Fury proved he is the quicker, more effective boxer.

Coming into this rematch, the winner will be the one who can learn from the first fight and adjust. If Wilder puts the fight on Fury’s chest, doesn’t headhunt but just bangs the body, over and over, the body and arms, keep it an inside fight, and negate Fury’s movement, Fury’s hands will drop, and he will be knocked out.

If Fury can keep Wilder at a distance, and exploit Wilder headhunting, he can outpoint him, and potentially open him up for a knockout of his own.

My prediction… I do not bet, however my gut, I like Wilder. He’s the fresher, more exciting fighter, and if he brings the fight to Fury’s body, rather than headhunting, this could be his night.

 

Okay… LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!

 

RESULTS ARE IN: Fury winner by TKO. Looking at the brief clips, it appears to break down to what I thought above, the one who learned and adjusted from the previous fight… won.

From the brief clips it appears Wilder was headhunting, giving Fury the space to dictate and control the fight from the outside, rather than setting up camp inside his guard and attacking the body. And then once he was concussed it looks like he didn’t have a gameplan.

I will say in the clinches Wilder should have headbutted the eff out of Fury, sometimes you have to get a little dirty to get respect. Fury was crossing the line, in one of the more disgusting displays in a boxing ring, Wilder needed to dissuade that kind of behavior, and a good headbutt or low-blow (generally has no place in a boxing ring, but neither did some of Fury’s antics), is always a pretty good dissuader. 🙂

But bottom line, Wilder and his corner appear to not have course corrected and had a plan to negate Fury’s speed and reach. You have to give it to Fury , he executed his game-plan, and he made the puncher, try and box. I’d love to see these guys do it again, which they are going to have to, as both men, particularly Fury, emphasize an issue with the Heavy Weight division.

Which I will get to below, in my rant section.

 

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I’m going to rant here.

Feel free to ignore this part. 🙂

These guys are super heavy weights, not heavy weights.

There is a reason we have weight divisions to make the fight competitive. Generally speaking if you are 15 pounds more than the next guy you are in a different weight class.

Since the days of Ali and Foreman, when Foreman was the real Ivan Drago (Bigger, stronger, meaner than anyone else in the division. An unbeatable man, a monster. Until Ali in the rematch somehow found a way to beat the unbeatable man) the issue of Super Heavyweight was percolating.

Generally when you did have these super heavy weights, with the exception of Foreman, they were not real contenders, real boxers. You get to the age of Lennox Lewis in the 90s, and then Klitschco in the 2000s and you are suddenly in this period of the super-heavy weights. And it is a bit of a stagnant, unexciting period, because legitimate heavy weights, are blowing themselves up trying to match the natural weight of a super-heavy weight, and just can’t match the reach. So you have a period where the few anomalies, 6’8 guys who can box and punch, super-heavy weights, are holding and stagnating the heavy weight division.

Move to today and we have 3 or 4 of these at the time unbeaten talented super heavyweights, so the division is exciting. But with only 3 or 4 of these guys, the same thing starts to occur, the heavy-weight title stagnates due to lack of competition.

If you are over 225lbs you should be fighting in a different weight class, not the heavy-weight division. That allows the age of future Marcianos and Alis and Holyfields to still happen. And you will always have competitive interesting fights and an influx of a lot of new talent, at that weight class. Above that you then have the super heavyweight division, which is where fighters like Fury and Wilder and Butterbean should be in. But not stagnating the heavy-weight division.

That has been boxing’s issue with the heavy weight division since the late 90s, and will continue to be an issue, until we create a distinction between heavy-weight fighters and super heavy-weights.

 

My 2 cents.

 

Deontay Wilder vs Tyson Fury : THE FINAL WORD

Well two undefeated fighters, one Heavy-weight champion (Deontay Wilder) and one returning champion (Tyson Fury), who both have seemingly been stymied in their attempts to get another existing champion, Anthony Joshua (he has three belts [wbo,ibf,wba] and Deontay Wilder holds one of the belts [wbc]), into the ring (In Deontay’s case to unify the belts and in Tyson’s case to regain the belt he relinquished); instead these two met each other last night, Saturday 1 Dec 2018, in a match of unorthodox styles.

Having made the rounds of all the fight analysis, and post fight press conferences to save you the trouble of doing so 🙂 , it seems we have a fight that boiled down to Fury being the slippery, better boxer– being able to make Wilder miss and counter punch, vs Wilder being the aggressive, stronger puncher and able to, when he could reach Fury, knock him to the canvas twice. The last knock down in the twelfth round, that by reports EVERYONE was sure was a knockout, and everyone was amazed by Fury getting up from the canvass and beating the count, to finish the round and take it to the cards.

Where I think (based on all the various takes on the fight) the judges (often second guessed mostly by a bunch of people who have never set foot in a boxing ring) got it right; awarding a decision of a draw. And setting the stage in the future for a rematch.

And like both fighters said (who were very complimentary of each other in the post fight, after being complete bastards to each other in the pre-fight build up) the fans were the winners, getting a great fight,

I think the only loser may have been Anthony Joshua’s camp who hoped two of the dangerous people gunning for him, would have narrowed themselves down to one.

But nope, as of today he still has two undefeated wolves, who have been baying publicly and loudly for his blood. Given the fantastic performance by both men I don’t know how legitimately either one is not your next fight. Perhaps even before a rematch fight.

If I were in either of these men’s camp, I would be pressing for an Anthony Joshua fight next, over a rematch. They both have more to gain, and the rematch is now a guaranteed payday regardless of how they perform against Joshua.

However if they do the rematch first, whoever gets the L is off the table for a Joshua Heavyweight payday fight.

 

It is a great time to be a boxing fan.

 

Thursday’s Thoughts! Vol 1 Issue 2 – Boxing – Wilder vs Joshua?!! WHEN???

“Heart jim, Heart! The whole world’s crying out for a little bit of heart!”

— DETECTIVE STORY

RECOMMENDED DVD/BLU-RAY PURCHASE OF THE DAY

 

DETECTIVE STORY (1951) – See my full review of DETECTIVE STORY in the last installment of Thursday’s Thoughts.

Okay so what is obsessing me this Thursday?

I am catching up with the 4th season of the blade making/competition show, FORGED IN FIRE courtesy of streaming service HULU. Other shows being POWER, AMERICAN PICKERS,

I am finishing up the 6th and last season of the surprisingly good TEEN WOLF series courtesy of AMAZON PRIME. The 6th season is a bit of a misstep, especially the last half, it feels like the writing was definitely on just ‘crank something out mode’, but a weak 1st season and a weak last season aside, it is still must own tv for seasons 2 thru 5.

Definitely along with FARGO season 2, LUKE CAGE season 1, and LEGION season 1, Blu-ray worthy.

Other show on my EXTENSIVE Amazon Prime watch list is THE AMERICANS, BAD LANDS, JACK RYAN, MISSION IMPOSSIBLE to name a few.

 

What I’m Listening to:

I’m now on the fourth audio book of the 8 book men’s adventure series from the 1970s BLACK SAMURAI. Titled PEARL this 4th entry of the series the stakes are a little more street level, but no less dire. Robert Sands, the Black Samurai, instead of averting the revenge massacre of an American town, or stopping the utilization of mass murders and global conflict to increase stock prices, or a terrorist nuclear detonation in America; must this time out save one young girl from prostitution.

Unfortunately his opposition is no less deranged, and the collateral damage… runs just as red. About 11 chapters in and simply stupendous writing. Kevin Kennerly has quickly risen into my rankings of best audio book performers.

If you have not picked up all eight MP3 Audio books on Amazon Prime, now is the time to do so. Previous experience informs that they will not be in stock long.

I pop the cd in on my way to and from work, yes I insist on having a CD player in my car 🙂 and the audio book is SO FRIGGING GOOD! Each book is a writer, the late, great Marc Olden just at the height of his gifts. As a fan of all these men’s adventure books of the 70s, from BOND, to NICK CARTER, to THD EXECUTIONER MAC BOLAN to REMO WILLIAMS THE DESTROYER, Olden’s BLACK SAMURAI is the best of the best.

 

What I’m watching:

Youtube.

I am watching a lot of great Youtube channels. I watch, via Roku, Youtube on my big screen. The Youtube shows are overall more interesting than regular TV.

This week I have in addition to my plethora of comic book shows, gotten on a boxing kick.

The heavy-weight division, after a period of stagnation in the Klitschko years, now has some really exciting champions and contenders and matchups. First and foremost you have two true undisputed champions, Deontay Wilder and Anthony Joshua.

Anthony Joshua holds the WBO,IBF, AND WBA belts. Deontay Wilder holds the WBC belt.

Both of these fighters are in the mold of Super Heavyweights, the first such Super-Heavyweight being George Forman back in the 1960s. Being well over 6 feet, and over 200 Lbs, Foreman dwarfed his heavy weight competition of the day. And only the brilliance that was Ali was able to figure out how to beat, the unbeatable George Foreman, a man who had not only height and weight but true boxing skill.

Foreman’s return to the heavy weight circuit in the 90s, in a boxing scene absent of an Ali to oppose him, saw the elder Stateman shake the world becoming decades after his expected prime, the undisputed heavy weight champion of the world… and set the mold for the champion of the future.

Someone 6’4 or above and 250lbs. That today has become the average size of the heavyweight division. Which effectively redefines the heavyweight division as a super-heavy weight division.

And redefines what has historically been the heavy weight division, as the cruiser weight division.

The domino effect of this skewing of traditional division definitions, is people who would perform far better and more competitively in the cruiserweight division, are bulking up to pursue the historic prestige of the heavy weight division. Not realizing the heavy weight champions of the 20th century would now all be cruiserweights, not heavyweights.

This new boom of super heavyweights in the heavyweight division, is part of the stagnation of the last few years. Talented fighters are putting on weight beyond their frame to compete with these new super heavyweights, to their detriment. And the detriment of the sport.

A lot of these boxers would be stunning at cruiser weight, but ‘cruiserweight champion of the world’ does not garner the respect or interest, as having the title heavyweight champion. That is why no one even knows who the cruiser weight champions are. I looked them up for this article, never heard of any of them.

There are two ways to solve this,

1/ either create a superheavy weight division, say avyone above 225lbs. And that keeps traditional heavyweights from being outmatched by someone substantially heavier than them, with a greater reach. This is perhaps the most satisfying way, in that it allows for another Jack Johnson, or Joe Louis, or Rocky Marciano to in the future become the heavy weight champion, to keep it not too far out of the scope of a regular guy. And the supersized anomalies such as Klitschko, Fury, Joshua etc, get moved to the Super Heavy Weight division. or..

2/The 2nd way would be to redefine the cruiserweight division as the most prestigious weight division. But that would likely be a hard sell as the history of what is considered the best in boxing is that heavyweight division.

So the 1st option is the one that offers the most competitive heavyweight division.

Currently in 2018 we are very blessed to have a few talented 6’6 heavy weights to compete against each other rather than just outjabbing what amounts to overweight cruserweights, but that beneficial status quo won’t last. And then we will be back to a stagnant heavyweright scene.

For the good of boxing we need to create a super heavy weight division, and that will allow exciting matches at the heavy weight division to flourish.

And right now there is one ‘fight of the decade’ match at the ‘Heavyweight’ division, as well as a couple competitive matches.

That fight of the decade is between of course Deontay Wilder and Anthony Joshua. Both 6’6 , both knockout artists, both undefeated, and both very exciting fighters. Though clearly Deontay Wilder is the more exciting fighter both inside and outside the ring. Quite clearly Joshua’s people are running scared, knowing in a fight with Deontay, the odds favor that Wilder is either going to knock out Joshua and unify the division: and even a grueling battle that ekes out a decision in favor of their champion, will just excelerate what Deontay likes to call ‘a fighter’s expiration date’.

Now I say the odds are good Wilder knocks out Joshua, cause that is where my gut points. But quite frankly they are both proven champions, it can go either way. That is why it would be a great fight, they are both deserving of respect. The only one who seemingly doesn’t know this is Tyson Fury. Tyson Fury also is deserving of respect, but he has been out of the game for three years, and arguably the Klitschko he beat was a shadow of the one that Joshua fought.

So having not had a fight in 3 years he is trying to talk himself into a title (spelt ‘money’) match. That is not how it is done. You have to prove you still have it and are deserving of fighting a champion before anyone is interested in seeing you fight a champion. Both Joshua and Wilder would earn nothing by beating him. He has to earn that contender status again, just like any other fighter. So it is good that he is fighting again, with a 2nd fight slated for August. Though as long as there is a Joshua/Wilder fight on the possible horizon, he might as well consign himself to waiting in line.

Why?

Well, This is part of the problem with this misnamed super-heavy weight division. Outside of fighting over weight cruiser weights there aren’t really a lot of competitive fights for 6’6 250 lb guys who can really box. So Joshua’s people have their hands full trying to duck The couple serious super-heavy weight fighters out there. I think Joshua beats handily a crafty Tyson Fury, but he risks ending his knockout streak, and worse… an injury, which is always a possibility with any fight, and losing out on the real money fight… Deontay Wilder.

The only fight anyone wants to see in the heavyweight/superheavy weight division is Deontay Wilder and Anthony Joshua. So Joshua people, stop cherry picking fighters and make it happen.

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Ok I did not think I would do that much talking about Boxing. What can I say, after decades of stagnation, there are some really competitive fights out there.

And Boxing, for reasons I stated elsewhere, I like as a spectator sport, far more than MMA.

That is it for this installment.

Leave a comment or like if you enjoy this THURSDAY’S THOUGHTS!!!